Apparently I'm a "Christian" Feminist, and that means I'm an oxymoron. This post is a response to my earlier comments on "gender-specific education."
To be clear this has nothing to do with how smart or capable a woman is and it has everything to do with God’s order for society. Lara, is a PhD student so I’m fairly certain God blessed her with an articulate tongue and a quick wit, as evidenced in her writings. I happen to think my wife is brilliant. God has given her the ability to think and to write and to be a blessing to those around her. These gifting are not lost because she submits to her husband, rather they are enhanced.
I've been doing a lot of reading about submission in marriage because I'm getting married soon, and I want to be clear on what the Bible says about the roles of the husband and wife in a marriage, and how to live that out in my relationship with Matt. I've read a lot of comments along the lines of "submitting doesn't mean a woman is not intelligent." But, a lot of what I've read has suggested that the only place for a woman to exercise these gifts is in the home. One blog I visited seemed to be arguing that the only reason for a woman to get an education is so she'll be better equipped to home-school her children.
I find it hard to get straight answers, though. What exactly does it mean for a woman to submit to her husband? What exactly is the wife's role in marriage? If I want to be a godly wife to Matt, does that mean that all my efforts should be put into our home and to supporting him, or am I allowed to use my intellect to help others as well? Would that be restricted to helping other women, perhaps by blogging or running a women's bible study, or am I allowed to go out into the secular world of the university to teach, encourage students and give public lectures? Am I allowed to write articles and books that will be read by men? I might seem petulant here, but for me these are real questions.
Someone anonymously commented on my post (I'm getting really tired of anonymous comments, and will probably end up not replying to any):
Why am I angry? It's a good question. But I think the blog I linked to gives some of the answer. People like this are not simply describing they way that they live - they are prescribing it as the only correct way for Christians to live.
Could you explain more about why her blog makes you angry? I'm confused. She is only stating what she and her husband believe about the world and how they should guide their children. Nowhere did she state in her blog that "Lara in Australia" MUST do as I am teaching my daughters!" If she had done so, of course your anger would be justified, as she has no authority over you and no business guiding your life. But she does hold these positions in relation to her own family. Her blog is not about attacking others, but rather her purpose is to explain how God has led her family and why they do the things they do. Why does this make you angry? I would realy like to understand.
What is confusing about Lara is she claims to be a Christian and says the Bible is her favorite book, “above all else“. The confusing part is how someone who reads the Bible can claim that feminism is a good thing and even countenance it as a philosophy.
Firstly, I don't know where he got the idea that I'm a "self-proclaimed reluctant feminist," or that I claim feminism as a good thing, and countenance it as a philosophy. Most of the posts I've put on my blog about feminism have been attempts to work through the issues, and I've explicitly said that I don't call myself a feminism. I'm a Christian - that's why my favourite book is the Bible, and not Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique. I don't derive my guidance on how to live from feminist texts - in fact, I can only really claim to have read one (Naomi Wolf's The Beauty Myth) - I derive it from Scripture. The thing is, people's interpretations of Scripture differ. I'm not talking about ultra-liberal, everything in the Bible is just a fable-type people. I'm talking about honest, God-following, truth-seeking Christians. The Bible, while being God's word, is still a text written in human language, and we're still fallible and sinful humans. We can never hope to agree on absolutely everything. So, we shouldn't be arrogant about our own interpretations. And that leads me to my second point.
Anonymous wrote, "Nowhere did she state in her blog that "Lara in Australia" MUST do as I am teaching my daughters!" If she had done so, of course your anger would be justified, as she has no authority over you and no business guiding your life."
Well, in a sense, she was. If someone writes that universities are places of pagan indoctrination and that a degree is just a piece of paper certifying that you've been "fully indoctrinated with statist, marxist-freudian ideologies," what is this saying about Christians who not only choose to receive a university education, but actually pursue several degrees and enjoy the process? And even the Vaughnshire Farm blogger is claiming that Christians shouldn't be educated in secular universities: "As to the socialist humanistic education system, I don’t think it is helpful for men or women. Why would we go to the God hating Darwinist to ask them to teach us about God’s world?"
Another question. What if my husband tells me to go out and work in a secular job rather than be a full-time stay-at-home wife? Should I submit?! The Vaughnshire Farm blogger wrote that his wife's giftings were enhanced because she submits. I believe that this would also happen in my marriage to Matt, because he encourages me to use the gifts that God has given me - not just in the home, but also in the wider world.
I should point out again that I've got nothing at all against women who choose to be stay-at-home wifes and mothers. That doesn't make me angry at all. Why should it? Such women are trying to live out what they see as the biblical model for marriage and family. What does make me angry is any kind of assumption that women who don't follow this exact model are sinning or disobeying God. I think it's arrogance to presume that one's own interpretation of the Bible (and especially the technicalities of how that interpretation is lived out) is the only correct one. I get angry when someone implies that going to uni is only about pagan indoctrination when I've spent the last 9 years seeking to honour God through my studies. I get upset when someone implies that I should be staying at home to serve my husband full-time once I get married instead of seeking to use the gifts and opportunities God has given me to encourage other Christians and to reach the lost. I get incensed when people seem to presume that a woman who wants to work outside the home is seeking worldly glory instead of seeking to honour God. I get frustrated by seeming inconsistency - "I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God" (1 Timothy 2:9-10) but yet wives should make sure they're all dolled up before their husband leaves for work and again when he gets home, to make sure he doesn't stray.
That's probably enough ranting for now. I should be working on my PhD - after all, the sooner I finish it, the sooner I can escape the pagan environment of the university. But to conclude, I'll just add that I'm quite ready to admit that I've misunderstood or misinterpreted what I've read about the points above. Maybe I've got no reason to be angry - maybe these people are not trying to impose their view of God's order on everyone. Or maybe they are right, and I'm just stuck in my worldly indoctrination. I'm still trying to figure these things out. This blog does not contain the final word on anything. It's a work in progress, just like me.
15 comments:
There is much about American Christianity that is culturally derived and not grounded in biblical truth. Unfortunately too many American Christians see themselves as foot soldiers in the "Culture War" to realise that they hold unbiblical beliefs.
Try, for example, to say to an American Christian that a Bible believing Christian can support universal health care or public schooling or adherence to international laws.
Of course, American Christians are allowed to be politically conservative if they want to. The problem is that they prescribe it as the only Christian way of doing things.
I'm reasonably leftist in my politics. I think biggish government, generous welfare spending and public schools are great. But I'm not going to argue that my way is God's way.
So what do they say?
Listen to Dobson, vote Republican, hate Hillary, believe that the US Constitution is a Christian document, support the invasion of other countries, critique any economic philosophy left of centre as "Satanic".
Sola Scriptura is the Reformation doctrine that no teaching outside of the bible about what to believe or how to live is binding upon the conscience of the Christian. It is the Bible, and the Bible only that determines truth, not conservative American culture.
How big should government be? The Bible doesn't say. Yet American Christians enamoured with conservative politics will eisegete texts like Romans 13 as evidence for small government (with low taxes, low welfare, etc). Yet none of the historical commentators (from John Calvin and Charles Hodge to Cranfield to Leon Morris) see Romans 13 in this light.
By adding these extra rules and beliefs to the faith, many American Christians add to the Word of God.
And yet while so many Christians will be happy to denounce homosexuality and agitate politicians to prohibit it, high profile evangelical leaders like Ted Haggard admit to homosexual behaviour during their ministries.
At this point in history, the church has little moral high ground to tell the world how to live. Moreover, they are so enmeshed with conservative politics that they cannot - can not - distinguish between what is God's word and what is merely worldly political philosophy.
And that, I think, is what you are reacting to.
Thing is, Lara - and this is just an observation - you don't seem to like people commenting about your stuff and about your commenting on them.
Maybe you should re-title the blog not "Talking to myself", but "Comments that are contrary to my opinion aren't valid."
I just don't think you can have it both ways. I'm not trying to be harsh, just showing you an inconsistency. (of which we all have many, so don't feel as if this is an attack).
BT take your writings and choke on them. If I was a woman being told my place was in the kitchen I'd be less than pleased. It's a pathetic use of brainwashing to perpetuate male dominance of society and leads to domestic violence and often death.
It also leads to stupid women with no independent thought, their sole purpose in life serving a man and spitting out babies.
The notion that a woman is less equipped than a man and should be relegated to staying at home making babies is an offence to me - even more offensive are the mindless drones who ascribe to it, giving over control of their brains and their bodies to the man of the household.
Wow, talk about backlash... I didn't say if I agreed with the writer of the original blog or not. I don't think I even mentioned the actual discussion ... chillax!!!!
Haha..
So what “good” did we gain when women received the right to vote? Instead of a woman being in subjection to her husband, trusting and helping him in his responsibilities to lead the family and make decisions, including who would best represent the family in the civic realm, we have the woman now with the civic “freedom” to counter her husband’s wishes and actually nullify his wishes for the family.
Are you sure that site isn't satirical? If only I guess, as it sure reads like it.. heh.
On the one hand I want to say, great rant, but you're not going to have much luck engaging with someone stuck in the 18th century.
On the other, the strange thing is that the guy you link to seems to hold a position that is, to some extent, the logical conclusion of the general position held in Sydney, it's just no one is prepared to take it that far, because they would look ridiculous.
That's why I think you don't get any/many straight answers - people are afraid of, or haven't thought through the conclusions, but still want to hold a vague position on submission because someone told them that's what the bible says and if you don't believe it you're usurping your husband, God, the natural order, etc.
Which is of course complete tosh, but to suggest so gets you branded unclean for daring to question this article of faith we hold to but don't really think about, and aren't really sure what it means.. except we've been told it's very, very important.
Anyway, back to the other blogger, OSO's comments about american cultural (ultra-)conservatism are on the money, in such a polarized society you get people rushing to out do themselves to prove they are the most conservative or liberal, and here you have someone who has rushed to the edge and taken a flying leap off it.
You, highly educated, want reasonable discussion. They, probably not so much, want to fight for a cause they don't much understand, but perhaps gives them some meaning or feeling of importance...
I think your concerns are quite legitimate and the fact that you question in light of the Bible shows you are on the right track no matter what anyone says to the contrary.
I would recommend reading the following website/blog:
http://ivpress.com/groothuis/rebecca. I think you will find what you are looking for there. There is also a link to her husband's website/bog which is interesting.
Karen
"...reach the lost"?? My dearest, darling Larissa, now I'm tempted to get upset.
One of the reasons I like you so well is that you have never treated me as 'lost', even knowing that I'm as hardened an atheist as they come. I valued our discussions about faith and religion (and The Princess Bride) and thought they were based on equality of opinion. But if you think of people like me as lost, I don't see how you can think of me as an equal...
Agnes
You know, you can disable anonymous comments.
On the rest, I make no comment.
I don't think that biblical Christianity and feminism make very comfortable bed fellows. But it's an extreme position that says a woman's *only* place is in the home. I doubt you would find too many people in SydAng arguing for that...
It’s always hard to think through these things on a blog. Some people tend to be a little graceless and unforgiving in their comments, and musings are often taken the wrong way. On the other hand, some people tend to come off a lot stronger in their opinions than they intend. I hope it hasn’t discouraged you too much.
The Bible teachers that wives are to submit to their husbands, but it doesn’t prescribe what this means for each individual couple. I think it varies according to each situation and it’s up to you guys to figure out what it means for you. For my husband and I, it currently means me working and earning the money while Sam studies. This may change, but Sam is always encouraging of me using my gifts outside the home – I don’t think that is incompatible with submission.
Submission is more of an attitude. I think it has more to do with the way you treat your husband, rather than what role you adopt. It’s about whether you respect him and trust him to love you as Christ loved the church. There are plenty of women who play the good housewife, but are disrespectful, nagging and horrible to their husbands. One problem, which I think is slowly changing, is that often people talk about submission/love as if they are merely roles and the definition of two spheres: work and home. They aren’t meant to be seen that way; you and your husband are to be one – you are halves of the same unit.
As for feminism, I think it’s possible to take some of the good things from feminism without subscribing to it as a philosophy for your life. I’m encouraged by how you are able to sift through the good and bad, rather than just deem everything unhelpful.
yikes. Just read that blog post you mentioned, the one which made you angry. I felt the blood pressure rise too!
But I'm trying to not let it get to me. I guess everyone's entitled to their opinion...though I'm soooo thankful (and I think so is my husband) my parents didn't raise me like that:)
Thanks Soph! It's nice to know I'm not the only one who feels this way! I do need to learn not to let these things get to me too much. It's true, people are entitled to their own opinion.
Lara,
I think you are really wise to be studying about submission in these weeks before your marriage. I know that God will honor the sincere searchings of your heart.
I read a wonderful book on this topic early in my marriage, titled "What's the Difference" by John Piper. Here's a link. http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Difference-Manhood-Womanhood-According/dp/1581342918/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204036104&sr=8-1
It discusses this topic as being more about a mindset and attitude, and carefully points out that the outworkings will differ from one couple to the next, or even from one season to the next, depending on many external circumstances as well as how God is working in the hearts of the couple. I hope that it is available in Australia! You may be able to find some related info at John Piper's website--he is a pastor. www.desiringgod.org
As to the anger that the Vaugnshire blog caused you--just remember that often blogs, are musings of people as they work out their lives and figure out what they stand for. Often it is like reading someone's journal, and they are writing more for themselves...I wouldn't let anyone's blog entries get to me! I take what seems useful for my own walk with God, and leave the rest, keeping an open heart for Him to change me through the new ideas I come across...The Vaugnshire Farm bloggers, if asked if they were the world's authorities on such matters would probably say this: "I'm still trying to figure these things out. This blog does not contain the final word on anything. It's a work in progress, just like me."--I am sure you recognize this quote from the end of your post! :-)
I honestly don't see anything in their blog that indicates they set themselves up as worldwide authorities over women's conduct. I see wording like, "For our daughters, this means..."And yes, they have strong opinions on topics such as college and the appropriateness of it for their children, but nowhere do I see them stating that all college attendees are scum of the earth who should all be burned at the stake! :-) They are merely stating their views and I don't think they have any ill will to those who don't see things as they do.
I will pray for you and you search for answers on how to serve God and your dear Matt as a married woman! Again, I really admire your diligence in pursuing answers, and I know the Lord will bless you as you keep your heart focused on Him.
A blog you may enjoy: www.ccostello.blogspot.com. This is the blog of a young Israeli woman named Anna, who is also preparing for marriage and seeking to honor God in her life and marriage. Although she is very conservative, I don't think you will find her posts offensive. She seems very sweet.
Best Wishes, Lara!
Hey There!
I'm new to your blog. I found it way of Paul Vaughn's site. I haven't read through everything - I quickly clicked over here instead of the painful reading that I was about to have to endure on his site. LOL. I figured if he's going to profile your site in a negative light, I'll probably enjoy it!
I'll finish reading all the posts and then leave my comments.
Oh, I used to be friends with the Vaughns. They no longer deem me worth of their association though, so we've kind of grown apart. That's what happens when one chooses to defect from the cult though... hahahaha
Perhaps you're a tautology. ;-)
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